Planes Fall Down...........
the air crash this past weekend and a horrific crash of a commercial
the coast of Point Mugu a few years ago, again the aviation world
focuses on The Point.
is a Naval Air Station that is fighting for it's life as another
round of BRACs
on the ante-bellum horizon.
is safe from BRAC as the Pacific Home of the 'Bees - but for Mugu
ops shifting to the high desert and the closing of the Commissary
- - - - - - - - - - which is a slap in
the face of all navy families aboard Mugu
is showing death rattles.
an old-bird F-4 fly in formation with more modern F-14's for public demonstration
an air show is not exactly a good idea for the antiquated F-4.
are the old work horses of "NAM. They are used at Mugu for
pulling drones and
targets....this use is OK - but the Navy in general needs to review
any more public
of the F-4.....Let's hope eyes open and budgets allow for replacements.
is a fine place and all the Oxnard Plain needs this base to be open
the local economy and for it's strategic value to the nation. Mugu
is alsoo one
the most pristine and wonderous wetland refuge for birds and sea mammals.
are some reports taken from News Group lists on the internet.
recants provide some interesting
as to what might be happening.....there is a long history.
disturbing are the reports of the what might have been with the
off Point Mugu and why the flight did not attempt to land at the
at Mugu when the flight was in distress.
Oxnard Journal is STRONGLY in favor of POINT MUGU remaining open.
There is a
USE PLAN already on the desk of local Council members and this
reality is real
on the recent down-turn of the commercial use of EL TORO in Orange County.
new focus of the air planners is to move some flights to a clear
port outside of the
From: Dano (email@example.com) ////// Subject:
Re: Voodoo Engines /////// Date:
Dano wrote: And Roswell replied: I went to a
grade school (St. Mary Magdalen's) that was situated directly under
the approach paths (note the plural!) for
Oxnard AFB (now >> decommissioned) and
Pt. Mugu NAS. //// OAFB flew F-101s (a lot, 2 squadrons if a child's
memory is to be believed)
and several other Century series including
F-100s and F-102, F-104. Mugu flew F-4s and A-4s....The 337th Fighter
Sq. Was at Oxnard.
I was in the 414th Combat Support Squadron
which was also there. The 337th flew F-101B's and a couple of J
Models. Some T-33's also.
The Aircraft that replaced the Voodoo was the
F-106 Delta Dart which began arriving in 1969. The F-106 was the last
fighter there, as you are aware,
the Base was phased out in 1970. //// All the
aircraft that you mentioned visited there except the F-100 which was
with the Guard, and not around the West Coast,
as I recall.. /// Well, that's what I get for
trusting that rusty tool called memory. Thanks for the correction.
And I do remember the 106s, but fondest memories are
for the Voodoos. They looked like an aircraft
oughta look, and they had the coolest name around - even better than Phantom!
There were numerous Transient aircraft at
Oxnard from time to time, as it was the closest USAF facility to
Greater Los Angeles/Hollywood.
Hmm, it seems obvious now but didn't then. Did
that proximity actually have a usefullness to the people stationed at OAFB?
The C-141's were frequent flyers there, as were
C-97's, and B-57's. You may recall the first Harriers came to Oxnard
during Flight tests, when Pt. Mugu was
closed for runway repairs. Ah the good old
days, seems like last year! /// A bit of further irony: Since Pt.
Mugu still does missile testing for the
USN they have a small fleet of really old
aircraft. The things you can still see out there these days are
pretty surprising. // Dan O'Donnell <firstname.lastname@example.org>
From: SLHFOTO (email@example.com)
Subject: U.S. Navy Jet Crashes During Air
Show, Killing Crew
2002-04-21 01:21:40 PST
U.S. Navy Jet Crashes During Air Show,
Sat Apr 20, 9:01 PM ET
SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - A QF-4 Phantom U.S.
Navy (news - web sites)
fighter jet crashed on Saturday during a
southern California air show, killing the
two-man crew, a Navy official said. The plane
crashed at 12:20 p.m. PDT diving into a wetlands area adjoining
theVentura County Naval Base about 60 miles northwest of Los Angeles,
base spokesman Vance Vasquez said.
"Apparently it was completing the air show
and coming into the break at Point Mugu and turning out over some
private land ... and while making a turn it crashed," he said.
The three-day Point Mugu Air Show, which began
Friday, was canceled, he added.
He said that an investigation would be made into
the crash of the QF4, an older F4 fighter jet, which had been part of
a squadron flown by pilots and also used as unmanned missile targets,
giving it the "Q" designation for targets. It was assigned
to the Naval Weapons Test Squadron at Point Mugu.
The plane was taking part in an exercise with
three others but was not making any unusual maneuvers when it
crashed, killing the pilot and radar intercept officer, whose names
were not released, he said.
A fire crew put out flames at the wreck about 10
minutes after the crash, which was the second in the 39-year history
of the air show and the first involving a fatality. The first crash
was in the early 1970s, when a P-47 Thunderbolt belly-landed near a
freeway overpass, Vasquez said.
From: Al Bowers
(firstname.lastname@example.org) Subject: Re: Point Magu Newsgroups:
rec.aviation.military Date: 1999/01/13 email@example.com
Yes, Point MUGU puts on a great show. Since they
are part of the test directorate (NAWC), they fly aircraft that have
long been retired from operational squadrons (F-4, etc.).
They used to put on a really good show, even
live-fire AIM-9s at flares. A story from an old Pt Mugu airshow (as
told to me by the culprit): It was a year the Blues didn't make it to
Pt Mugu. So the routine was being "duplicated" by a single
F-4 (the black one with the "rabbit" on the tail). Just
after the slow pass, the F-4 came back around for the high speed pass.
It was a bit hazy that day (typical marine layer) and so the front-seater
kept his eyes on the ground track, and the back-seater was to watch
the Machmeter and call out over the intercom.
"...point nine four..." = =
"...point nine four..." = = "...point nine six..."
The front-seater got a twitch and looked down at
the Machmeter. When the pilot looked up, he'd lost the field. So he
pulled off immediately and found he was lined up perfectly. So they
came around again, same instructions.
"...point nine four..." = =
"...point nine six..." = = "...point nine six..."
= = "...point nine eight..." = = "...point nine
eight..." = = "...point nine eight..."
"...ONE POINT OH FOUR!..."
Just then they flashed by the crowd. Looking down
the front seat Machmeter was sure enough over one point oh. The pilot
finished the routine, but worried about booming the crowd. The crew
taxied up to their spot on the tarmac. After the crew chief gave them
the "full stop" signal, the entire crew gave them BIG
SMILES and thumbs up! The pilot KNEW he'd been caught with his shorts
around his ankles. The frontseater spent the rest of the afternoon
hiding out in the crowd from the FAA officials...
Al Bowers ...wish I coulda been there for that one!...
From: Henry_Blecha (Henry_Blecha)
Subject: Re: Who is still flying F-4s?
In article <19971104204701.PAA26533@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
My friend at work swears he saw two F-4s
at McClellan AFB over the
I didnt think F-4s were still around.
***Within the past month I saw one in the
pattern here at China Lake.
It of course was a QF-4. We did have a batch of
them "flying" just recently.
Of course they were under a chopper as they
were hauled off to the test range
to serve as ground targets. Still have about 15
or so still setting in the
bone yard here. Most are Navy variants.
By the way Scott the designation for China Lake
and Mugu is
NAWS China Lake and NAWS Pt Mugu.
Located at both facilities is the
respective NAWCWD. TheWeapons
Division is headquartered at China Lake.
Conversely the Aircraft Division
is Headquartered at Pax River (NAWCAD). BTW the
last B-29 is in process of
restoration at Inyokern Airport.
Understand it will brought up to flight status
and flown off to whereever for final
restoration. When this occurs it will be the
4th one to fly out of the
area. "FIFI" being the first!!
Other than the USAF drones of the 82ATRS/475WEG
(they have standard camo
with red tails and wing tips), theNavy drones
of NWTS Pt Mugu, and test
aircraft at NAWC China Lake, the only other US
based Phantoms are the F-4Fs of the
20FS/49FW at Holloman AFB. This is the
German training squadron and they
fly at Holloman as there are approximately 360
flying days a year there. If
you can wait until this weekend. I will have a
page of these aircraft on my
website in the F-4 Archives section. I
already have a number of 82 ATRS
and NWTS Pt. Mugu photos at the site.
Scott Van Aken IPMS Canada 5729
Now, back to reality: which is already in
progress--Firesign Theaterkit reviews and photos at
http://members.aol.com/svanaken/index.htm>New items added weekly
From: Skippy (firstname.lastname@example.org)
Subject: Pt. Mugu air show crash
Date: 2002-04-20 16:33:40 PST
From the Ventura County Star:
Can anyone comment as to the appropriateness of
the manuver given the
age and current use of this aircraft?
Two people die after plane crashes in Point Mugu
April 20, 2002
The two-person crew on board an F-4 aircraft that
during an air show at the Point Mugu Naval Air
Weapons station were
confirmed dead, officials said.
The identity of the two people has not yet been released.
The jet crashed at 12:20 p.m., bursting into
flames when it hit the
ground on the west side of the airport, said
Vance Vasquez, a Naval
Base Ventura County spokesman.
Fire crews took 10 minutes to put out the fire.
The jet and its crew had been taking part in the
38th Point Mugu
An onlooker told radio station KVEN that the
pilot ejected from the
plane but couldn't use a parachute because the
turning plane was too
low to the ground.
There were no known injuries on the ground, said
Vasquez, adding the
plane went down in a remote area of the base.
The show was ended and spectators were told to
leave the base after
The California Highway Patrol closed several
roadways around the base,
including Highway 1, said Sandi Wells,
spokeswoman for Ventura County
The jet was a QF-4 Phantom II, assigned to the
Naval Air Weapons Test
Squadron at Point Mugu. The Q designation means
the plane is used as a
target by the Navy, Vasquez said.
Subject: Re: Thunderbirds new planes?
On 11 Nov 1996, David Tanner wrote:
email@example.com (Matthew Hamer) wrote:
GLTF63A@prodigy.com (Paul Naepflin) wrote:
I agree the F-16 routine is starting to have
that "been there, done
that" effect. My vote would be to follow the
trend set by some sports teams
in recent years, why not have a
"throwback" demonstration team and bring
back the F-4 Phantoms??
Get Kuwait to donate the JP4, and I'll bet there
is a phalanx of ex-USAF
& USN types that would service and fly the birds.
There's a flying USAF F-4 out at Edwards at the
moment. It looks like a
F-4K, any help here Mary?
BTW, a serious question. When Blue Angels and
Thunderbirds flew F-4s,
did the WSOs fly too?
No. The Phantoms were flown from the front
seat only. Except for test
flying in the early days, this is about the only
time that F-4s were flown without
a back seater. Even the drones at Pt. MuGu seem to
have two persons on board
when they fly.
When the drones are being used as NOLOs out here
at Mugu, you'll see them
with only a driver and no wizzo between Mugu and
the Island, but when
they're using it for everything else they do (They
have this bitchin
one-of-a-kind camera pod that fits on the
centerline) there's usualy two
guys on board. Mugu's great, I live right on
final, and we still get F-4s
and the occasional A-3 flying over.
* Fire/Rescue/EMS Photography *
* firstname.lastname@example.org *
* "Now black is white and white is
* got politicians smokin' crack *
* and John Paul's all bullet-proofed *
* it puts me through the roof." *
* -- Van Halen "Feelin'" *
From: Paul LeBlanc (email@example.com)
Subject: Air Alaska uprising: NTSB is
lying to us (but we should believe them)
Alaska Air Pilots, Crew Say NTSB Crash Story Is
'BS' Notes From John Quinn & Anthony J. Hilder's Newspad
Alaska Airlines pilots and crews aren't
buying into the National Transport Safety Board bureaucrats' "cover-up
story" on how AK Air's Flight 261
went down for the final count killing all 88 aboard.
Scuttlebutt has it that employees are
deeply disturbed by the fact that the airline isn't furnishing any
their staff people. An inordinate amount
of personnel have been absent the first three weeks after the crash
"We're not buying the NTSB's Bull
S..T" says one source. "The Feds have "tossed a foul
ball & we are not hitting it."
The airline's mechanics are near-unanimous in
the belief that the "air holocaust" wasn't because of any "faulty"
stabilizer screw. In the words of one
mechanic with Alaska Air: "that's so much hokum."
Moreover, in talking to one employee who
knew Fl. 261's pilots Bill Tansky and Ted Thompson, they said: "They
were two of our most experienced
pilots." But when asked why they headed out to sea; turning away
airfield at Point Mugu with its open and
immediately accessible runway, they didn't have an answer. "I
know why they bypassed the runway, no
one here can explain it," our source divulged with tears in
their eyes. "I
was crying for a week and I haven't been
able to sleep ever since. I knew eight of the people on board personally.
They were my friends." We know for
certain that a number of the Hilder/Quinn articles were
circulating in various Alaska Airline
offices around the country. Apparently some of Alaska Air's flight
attendants made copies. They have been
seen from Puerto Vallarta to Anchorage and all spots in-between.
The articles, including, "It Defies
All Logic," have been picked up by other major websites;
Sterling's Konformist.com., Jeff Rense's
Sightings , Kent Steadman's Cyberspaceorbit.com and Doug Pooley's
FlashRadar. The articles have been seen
by millions at this point.
Attorneys across the country representing
those who died needlessly in the crash have also been availed of the
information and are taking a CLOSE LOOK
at what was going on at the U.S. Navy's Pt. Mugu Weapons Testing
Center on February 1st.
One of our sources at Alaska Air says:
"When I came into the employee room their were five people
reading it at
the same time. I was busy and didn't
have time to read it until the next day." The source said: "
One girl (a flight
attendant) was concerned that we are not
being given the truth."
Our contact went on to say:
"Everybody is asking why we (the flight) didn't land at Point
Mugu. They had plenty of
opportunity. But who knows what
happened? They're not telling us anything."
Three weeks later, it
's still "mum's the word." As to the
NTSB's "SPIN STORY," the widely-prevailing view
within Alaska Air is-- "NO WAY! IT
DIDN'T HAPPEN THAT WAY." c 2000
NewsHawk Inc./A.J. Hilder
>.. From NewsHawk Inc.
There you go, Mr. NTSB, set screw loving Polly.
You love to think set
screws are the cause of unanswerable questions?
Go ahead .... it's your
choice, as always. You can deny it all you want
but if you get on one
of those planes and it begins to act in ways
that defy human reasoning,
just remember the set screw story and how you
bought it, lock, stock,
and 55 gallon drum.