When Planes Fall Down...........

.......With the air crash this past weekend and a horrific crash of a commercial airliner

off the coast of Point Mugu a few years ago, again the aviation world focuses on The Point.


....Mugu is a Naval Air Station that is fighting for it's life as another round of BRACs

loom on the ante-bellum horizon.


....CBC-PorHue is safe from BRAC as the Pacific Home of the 'Bees - but for Mugu

with ops shifting to the high desert and the closing of the Commissary -

- - - - - - - - - - - which is a slap in the face of all navy families aboard Mugu -

Mugu is showing death rattles.


....Having an old-bird F-4 fly in formation with more modern F-14's for public demonstration

at an air show is not exactly a good idea for the antiquated F-4.

....F-4's are the old work horses of "NAM. They are used at Mugu for pulling drones and

running targets....this use is OK - but the Navy in general needs to review any more public

uses of the F-4.....Let's hope eyes open and budgets allow for replacements.

....Mugu is a fine place and all the Oxnard Plain needs this base to be open for jobs

for the local economy and for it's strategic value to the nation. Mugu is alsoo one

of the most pristine and wonderous wetland refuge for birds and sea mammals.


......Below are some reports taken from News Group lists on the internet.

These recants provide some interesting

insight as to what might be happening.....there is a long history.

Most disturbing are the reports of the what might have been with the Alaska Air

crash off Point Mugu and why the flight did not attempt to land at the large air

strip at Mugu when the flight was in distress.

The Oxnard Journal is STRONGLY in favor of POINT MUGU remaining open. There is a

JOINT USE PLAN already on the desk of local Council members and this reality is real

based on the recent down-turn of the commercial use of EL TORO in Orange County.

The new focus of the air planners is to move some flights to a clear port outside of the

Los Angeles area.

From: Dano (dano@west.nest) ////// Subject: Re: Voodoo Engines /////// Date: 1997/03/03

Dano wrote: And Roswell replied: I went to a grade school (St. Mary Magdalen's) that was situated directly under the approach paths (note the plural!) for

Oxnard AFB (now >> decommissioned) and Pt. Mugu NAS. //// OAFB flew F-101s (a lot, 2 squadrons if a child's memory is to be believed)

and several other Century series including F-100s and F-102, F-104. Mugu flew F-4s and A-4s....The 337th Fighter Sq. Was at Oxnard.

I was in the 414th Combat Support Squadron which was also there. The 337th flew F-101B's and a couple of J Models. Some T-33's also.

The Aircraft that replaced the Voodoo was the F-106 Delta Dart which began arriving in 1969. The F-106 was the last fighter there, as you are aware,

the Base was phased out in 1970. //// All the aircraft that you mentioned visited there except the F-100 which was with the Guard, and not around the West Coast,

as I recall.. /// Well, that's what I get for trusting that rusty tool called memory. Thanks for the correction. And I do remember the 106s, but fondest memories are

for the Voodoos. They looked like an aircraft oughta look, and they had the coolest name around - even better than Phantom!

There were numerous Transient aircraft at Oxnard from time to time, as it was the closest USAF facility to Greater Los Angeles/Hollywood.

Hmm, it seems obvious now but didn't then. Did that proximity actually have a usefullness to the people stationed at OAFB?

The C-141's were frequent flyers there, as were C-97's, and B-57's. You may recall the first Harriers came to Oxnard during Flight tests, when Pt. Mugu was

closed for runway repairs. Ah the good old days, seems like last year! /// A bit of further irony: Since Pt. Mugu still does missile testing for the

USN they have a small fleet of really old aircraft. The things you can still see out there these days are pretty surprising. // Dan O'Donnell <dano@west.net>

 From: SLHFOTO (slhfoto@aol.com)

 Subject: U.S. Navy Jet Crashes During Air Show, Killing Crew

 Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military.naval

 Date: 2002-04-21 01:21:40 PST

 U.S. Navy Jet Crashes During Air Show, Killing Crew

Sat Apr 20, 9:01 PM ET

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - A QF-4 Phantom U.S. Navy (news - web sites)

fighter jet crashed on Saturday during a southern California air show, killing the

two-man crew, a Navy official said. The plane crashed at 12:20 p.m. PDT diving into a wetlands area adjoining theVentura County Naval Base about 60 miles northwest of Los Angeles, base spokesman Vance Vasquez said.

"Apparently it was completing the air show and coming into the break at Point Mugu and turning out over some private land ... and while making a turn it crashed," he said.

The three-day Point Mugu Air Show, which began Friday, was canceled, he added.

He said that an investigation would be made into the crash of the QF4, an older F4 fighter jet, which had been part of a squadron flown by pilots and also used as unmanned missile targets, giving it the "Q" designation for targets. It was assigned to the Naval Weapons Test Squadron at Point Mugu.

The plane was taking part in an exercise with three others but was not making any unusual maneuvers when it crashed, killing the pilot and radar intercept officer, whose names were not released, he said.

A fire crew put out flames at the wreck about 10 minutes after the crash, which was the second in the 39-year history of the air show and the first involving a fatality. The first crash was in the early 1970s, when a P-47 Thunderbolt belly-landed near a freeway overpass, Vasquez said.

 From: Al Bowers (bowers@orville.dfrc.nasa.gov) Subject: Re: Point Magu Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military Date: 1999/01/13 bloodhnd83@aol.com

Yes, Point MUGU puts on a great show. Since they are part of the test directorate (NAWC), they fly aircraft that have long been retired from operational squadrons (F-4, etc.).

They used to put on a really good show, even live-fire AIM-9s at flares. A story from an old Pt Mugu airshow (as told to me by the culprit): It was a year the Blues didn't make it to Pt Mugu. So the routine was being "duplicated" by a single F-4 (the black one with the "rabbit" on the tail). Just after the slow pass, the F-4 came back around for the high speed pass. It was a bit hazy that day (typical marine layer) and so the front-seater kept his eyes on the ground track, and the back-seater was to watch the Machmeter and call out over the intercom.

"...point nine four..." = = "...point nine four..." = = "...point nine six..."

The front-seater got a twitch and looked down at the Machmeter. When the pilot looked up, he'd lost the field. So he pulled off immediately and found he was lined up perfectly. So they came around again, same instructions.

"...point nine four..." = = "...point nine six..." = = "...point nine six..." = = "...point nine eight..." = = "...point nine eight..." = = "...point nine eight..."


Just then they flashed by the crowd. Looking down the front seat Machmeter was sure enough over one point oh. The pilot finished the routine, but worried about booming the crowd. The crew taxied up to their spot on the tarmac. After the crew chief gave them the "full stop" signal, the entire crew gave them BIG SMILES and thumbs up! The pilot KNEW he'd been caught with his shorts around his ankles. The frontseater spent the rest of the afternoon hiding out in the crowd from the FAA officials...

Al Bowers ...wish I coulda been there for that one!...

From: Henry_Blecha (Henry_Blecha)

Subject: Re: Who is still flying F-4s?

 Newsgroups: rec.models.scale

 Date: 1997/11/04

In article <19971104204701.PAA26533@ladder02.news.aol.com>,



 My friend at work swears he saw two F-4s at McClellan AFB over the


I didnt think F-4s were still around.

***Within the past month I saw one in the pattern here at China Lake.

It of course was a QF-4. We did have a batch of them "flying" just recently.

Of course they were under a chopper as they were hauled off to the test range

to serve as ground targets. Still have about 15 or so still setting in the

bone yard here. Most are Navy variants.

By the way Scott the designation for China Lake and Mugu is

NAWS China Lake and NAWS Pt Mugu.

 Located at both facilities is the respective NAWCWD. TheWeapons

Division is headquartered at China Lake. Conversely the Aircraft Division

is Headquartered at Pax River (NAWCAD). BTW the last B-29 is in process of

 restoration at Inyokern Airport.

Understand it will brought up to flight status and flown off to whereever for final

restoration. When this occurs it will be the 4th one to fly out of the

area. "FIFI" being the first!!

v/r HBLecha


Other than the USAF drones of the 82ATRS/475WEG (they have standard camo

with red tails and wing tips), theNavy drones of NWTS Pt Mugu, and test

aircraft at NAWC China Lake, the only other US based Phantoms are the F-4Fs of the

 20FS/49FW at Holloman AFB. This is the German training squadron and they

fly at Holloman as there are approximately 360 flying days a year there. If

you can wait until this weekend. I will have a page of these aircraft on my

 website in the F-4 Archives section. I already have a number of 82 ATRS

and NWTS Pt. Mugu photos at the site.

Scott Van Aken IPMS Canada 5729

Now, back to reality: which is already in progress--Firesign Theaterkit reviews and photos at http://members.aol.com/svanaken/index.htm>New items added weekly

From: Skippy (spambait@adelphia.net)

 Subject: Pt. Mugu air show crash

 Newsgroups: alt.disasters.aviation

Date: 2002-04-20 16:33:40 PST

From the Ventura County Star:

Can anyone comment as to the appropriateness of the manuver given the

age and current use of this aircraft?



Two people die after plane crashes in Point Mugu

April 20, 2002

The two-person crew on board an F-4 aircraft that crashed Saturday

during an air show at the Point Mugu Naval Air Weapons station were

confirmed dead, officials said.

The identity of the two people has not yet been released.

The jet crashed at 12:20 p.m., bursting into flames when it hit the

ground on the west side of the airport, said Vance Vasquez, a Naval

Base Ventura County spokesman.

Fire crews took 10 minutes to put out the fire.

The jet and its crew had been taking part in the 38th Point Mugu


An onlooker told radio station KVEN that the pilot ejected from the

plane but couldn't use a parachute because the turning plane was too

low to the ground.

There were no known injuries on the ground, said Vasquez, adding the

plane went down in a remote area of the base.

The show was ended and spectators were told to leave the base after

the crash.

The California Highway Patrol closed several roadways around the base,

including Highway 1, said Sandi Wells, spokeswoman for Ventura County

Fire Department.

The jet was a QF-4 Phantom II, assigned to the Naval Air Weapons Test

Squadron at Point Mugu. The Q designation means the plane is used as a

target by the Navy, Vasquez said.



Subject: Re: Thunderbirds new planes?

 Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military

 Date: 1996/11/14

 On 11 Nov 1996, David Tanner wrote:

 mhamer@mail.island.net (Matthew Hamer) wrote:

 GLTF63A@prodigy.com (Paul Naepflin) wrote:

 I agree the F-16 routine is starting to have that "been there, done

that" effect. My vote would be to follow the trend set by some sports teams

in recent years, why not have a "throwback" demonstration team and bring

back the F-4 Phantoms??

Get Kuwait to donate the JP4, and I'll bet there is a phalanx of ex-USAF

& USN types that would service and fly the birds.

There's a flying USAF F-4 out at Edwards at the moment. It looks like a

F-4K, any help here Mary?

BTW, a serious question. When Blue Angels and Thunderbirds flew F-4s,

did the WSOs fly too?


 No. The Phantoms were flown from the front seat only. Except for test

flying in the early days, this is about the only time that F-4s were flown without

a back seater. Even the drones at Pt. MuGu seem to have two persons on board

when they fly.

When the drones are being used as NOLOs out here at Mugu, you'll see them

with only a driver and no wizzo between Mugu and the Island, but when

they're using it for everything else they do (They have this bitchin

one-of-a-kind camera pod that fits on the centerline) there's usualy two

guys on board. Mugu's great, I live right on final, and we still get F-4s

and the occasional A-3 flying over.

Ken Koller


  * Fire/Rescue/EMS Photography *

  * http://www.islandnet.com/~waynej/Ken_Koller/fireline.html *

  * kkoller@adnetsol.com *

  * *

  * "Now black is white and white is black, *

  * got politicians smokin' crack *

  * and John Paul's all bullet-proofed *

  * it puts me through the roof." *

  * -- Van Halen "Feelin'" *


From: Paul LeBlanc (bronyaur@gis.net)

 Subject: Air Alaska uprising: NTSB is lying to us (but we should believe them)

 Date: 2000/02/28

Alaska Air Pilots, Crew Say NTSB Crash Story Is 'BS' Notes From John Quinn & Anthony J. Hilder's Newspad

  Alaska Airlines pilots and crews aren't buying into the National Transport Safety Board bureaucrats' "cover-up

  story" on how AK Air's Flight 261 went down for the final count killing all 88 aboard.

 Scuttlebutt has it that employees are deeply disturbed by the fact that the airline isn't furnishing any information to

  their staff people. An inordinate amount of personnel have been absent the first three weeks after the crash due to

  "emotional trauma."


 "We're not buying the NTSB's Bull S..T" says one source. "The Feds have "tossed a foul ball & we are not hitting it."

The airline's mechanics are near-unanimous in the belief that the "air holocaust" wasn't because of any "faulty"

 stabilizer screw. In the words of one mechanic with Alaska Air: "that's so much hokum."

 Moreover, in talking to one employee who knew Fl. 261's pilots Bill Tansky and Ted Thompson, they said: "They

 were two of our most experienced pilots." But when asked why they headed out to sea; turning away from the

 airfield at Point Mugu with its open and immediately accessible runway, they didn't have an answer. "I just don't

  know why they bypassed the runway, no one here can explain it," our source divulged with tears in their eyes. "I

  was crying for a week and I haven't been able to sleep ever since. I knew eight of the people on board personally.

  They were my friends." We know for certain that a number of the Hilder/Quinn articles were

  circulating in various Alaska Airline offices around the country. Apparently some of Alaska Air's flight

  attendants made copies. They have been seen from Puerto Vallarta to Anchorage and all spots in-between.

 The articles, including, "It Defies All Logic," have been picked up by other major websites; including Robert

 Sterling's Konformist.com., Jeff Rense's Sightings , Kent Steadman's Cyberspaceorbit.com and Doug Pooley's

  FlashRadar. The articles have been seen by millions at this point.

 Attorneys across the country representing those who died needlessly in the crash have also been availed of the

  information and are taking a CLOSE LOOK at what was going on at the U.S. Navy's Pt. Mugu Weapons Testing

  Center on February 1st.

 One of our sources at Alaska Air says: "When I came into the employee room their were five people reading it at

  the same time. I was busy and didn't have time to read it until the next day." The source said: " One girl (a flight

  attendant) was concerned that we are not being given the truth."


  Our contact went on to say: "Everybody is asking why we (the flight) didn't land at Point Mugu. They had plenty of

  opportunity. But who knows what happened? They're not telling us anything."


  Three weeks later, it

's still "mum's the word." As to the NTSB's "SPIN STORY," the widely-prevailing view

  within Alaska Air is-- "NO WAY! IT DIDN'T HAPPEN THAT WAY." c 2000

  NewsHawk Inc./A.J. Hilder



  >.. From NewsHawk Inc.


There you go, Mr. NTSB, set screw loving Polly. You love to think set

screws are the cause of unanswerable questions? Go ahead .... it's your

choice, as always. You can deny it all you want but if you get on one

of those planes and it begins to act in ways that defy human reasoning,

just remember the set screw story and how you bought it, lock, stock,

and 55 gallon drum.